Sensing dhamma as they really are

Dear Ken,
I tried answering those points you raised as best as I can:
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Ken:

Hi Hasitpudda

If concentration develop wisdom, then people who attend tennis show
will have been enlighted because they are very concentrated on the
show ;-).
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Hasituppada:

This needs no answer as it is irrelevant to a Dhamma discussion and
simplistic.
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Ken:

Concentration does not develop wisdom, please remember
Buddha learnt concentration up to the 8th jhanas from two well known
teachers at his time before he was a Buddha and he found that it does
not lead to deathless. During his nite of awakening, Buddha realise
Dependent Origination, he does not realise concentration because he
already know concentration. Concentration is a mean but not the key
itself. When one look at Great Forty Sutta, Right view is the
forerunner and not right concentration. Only with right view, then
concentration is of benefit, what is right view, right view is the
direct knowledge of the 4NT which only can be attained when one is
enlighted.
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Hasituppada:

Did I say concentration develops wisdom, then I am wrong. I am
sorry. I should have said Meditation develops wisdom. The
meditation has two aspects, first the concentration and the second
the insight. It is this latter meditation that develops wisdom-which
is the begining of the understanding of the impermanence,
unsatisfactoryness and, no-self.
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Ken:

When pple say to me that dhamma can be a deterent to practise then I
dont know why at that time during Buddha preaching, there are Ven
Sariputta who still listen to him. Then there are those who are
still stream entrant still listen to him.
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Hasituppada:

Buddha's time was different, his person itself may have inspired
attention and immense saddha. Buddha's Chief Disciples acted in
place of Buddha in his absence to teach and make discourses,
therefore it is natural that Venerable Sariputta listened to
Buddha's Discourses. And do not forget they were Arahats.
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Ken:

I dont think it is a deterent, it is only a deterent because one does not know dhamma
precisely then it becomes a deterent.
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Hasituppada:

I think I said learning Dhamma too much could be a deterent to
meditation. I stand by it.
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Ken:

You are wrong to compare Ven
Ananda to the rest of Venerables, each has different capacities.
Some become stream entrant just by four stanzas, some do not even
smell stream entrant learn their whole life.
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Hasituppada:

I brought Venerable Ananda in to show that knowledge of Dhamma alone
is no guarantee for acquiring wisdom, with which you see the three
lakkhana. He was afterall the Treasurer of Buddha Dhamma. When
Buddha was alive it was quite different.....
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Ken:

When again, you said that study is only gathering knowledge, did you
read the suttas correctly, when one has faith, one lend ear, when one
lend ear, one listen to the dhamma.... then zeal arouse, ... then
effort arouse... then insight. That is the power of listening, dont
undermine its significance because without it where is the basis of
zeal to meditate in the first place.
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Hasituppada:

I said it is alright to read and study Dhamma and listen to Dhamma
but all that knowledge is better left outside the Kuti where you
meditate.

I wander whether you have noticed during your meditation sessions,
how what you had been reading, recurrently keep "popping up" in
your mind as "thoughts". Sometimes it is impossible to bring the
mind to a one pointed concentration of these "disturbing"thoughts.

That is where the reading is a deterrent.
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Ken:

Meditate is a mean but not the
key, if not during Buddha time, there will have been thousand of
Brahims become enlighted likewise for the jhanas teachers of Buddha
before he was a Buddha
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Hasituppada:

You know as well as I do that the Brahmins had other objectives in
meditation and the Buddha another. Brahaminism and Jhana do not aim
at enlightenment.

Meditation is the one and only way to Nibbana (Ekayano Maggo)

Dear Ken, I have nothing against your learning Dhamma on the other
hand I admire and respect you. Please continue. It has its
benefits, and understanding Dhamma is a great priviledge that we
have.

I was thinking interms of Meditation for seeking freedom from the
bonds of Samsara. We are both followers of the Buddha's teachings. I
consider it my good kamma to have come accross a group composed of
persons like you who are devoted to Dhamma. I am sure we had
crossed our paths before in Samsara. If not how is it that we are
discussing Dhamm together, even with our different ways of its
acceptance.

In Maha Mangala Sutta it is said "Asevanaca Balana.n,Panditana.nca
Sevana" It is a blessing not to keep the company of fools, and it is
a blessing to keep the company of the wise.

May you be happy, Ken,
with metta,
Hasituppada.
Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 12 )

Dear Hasituppada,

Thanks for your expounding dhamma matter. You exactly sense the
dhamma. All you said are right if I did not miss anything unnoticed.
Most people confuse because of concept and conceptualisation as you
revealed in your example of constructing ideas to build up the
missing part to figure out the whole picture which actually is just a
mixture of pannatta.

Thanks again for your discussion.

Htoo Naing


Dear Htoot Naing and Carl,

I think there is more to what Carl asks. It is not a beginer's
question really, it provokes thought, doesn't it ?
***********

At that time befor the smell object has been smelled by the nose,
and befor ghanavinnana citta has arisen,
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My thinking:

There is nothing because the smell is still not an object which has
come within reach of the meditator's, nose (ghanaayatana).
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At that time before the smell object has been experienced and is
only in the breeze, not yet impinging on the nose-sense-base,
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My thinking:

If the smell is still not impinging on the nose there is still
nothing because the smell has still not become an object of
meditation for the meditator. He is still unaware of it.

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At that time before, How can the smell-object be known? What
would it be known as, and who would know it?

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My thinking:

It will not be known. The Meditor will not be aware of the smell
untill it impinges on his ghandayatana. He will not be aware of
the smell-object,because it has still not become his smell-object.
It is only when the smell in th breeze touches (passa cetasika) the
nose -gahanaayatana, that a consciousness will arise signalling
the meditator the presence of something in the breeze. But the
meditator will still not know what it is. If the meditator's mind
continues to be aware of this "something" a feeling (vedana
cetasika) of pleasantness or unpleasentness will(may)arise. If the
meditor's mind maintains his attention perception (sanna cetasika)
arises, and it is only then the "mind" will recognize the smell as
the smell of a Jasmine flower. (the word "meditor" in the paragraph
should be recognized as the mind(mano))

But in the case of a person ( leaving out the meditator)who has
seen say the Jasmin flower, will see only the part that is visible.
When the image reaches perception (sanna cetasika) the person
seeing the flower, will recognises it as a Jasmine flower and will
add the missing qualities of it, the colour, softness or hardness
of the petal, and the smell and so on.
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Thank you for helping me with my beginers questions.

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Isn't it so ?

with metta,
Hasituppada
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Carl: Question:

At that time befor the smell object has been smelled by the
nose, and befor ghanavinnana citta has arisen,

At that time befor the smell object has been experienced and is
only in the breeze, not yet impinging on the nose-sense-base,

At that time befor, How can the smell-object be known? What
would it be known as, and who would know it?

Thank you for helping me with my beginers questions.

Carl
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Dear Carl,

Thanks for your question and interest. May I re-state your
questions as follow?

1. At the time... How can the smell-object be known?

Answer: Your introductory part of questions are long and
confusing.
If I have to answer only 'How can the smell-object be known?', I
would say ,' By attention when there are conditions for smell-
consciousness or ghanavinnana such as gandha or smell,
ghanapasada or nose, and air '.

2. 'What would it be known as?

Answer: It would be known as 'Ghanavinnana' and at that single
moment there will be just ghanavinnana. You will not know it as jesmine.

3. 'Who would know it?'

Answer: No one knows.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing

Sensing dhamma as they really are

Dear Hasituppada,

I appreciate what you are saying here. I understood your post on
thoughts as mind-objects was about experience, not intellectual
learning or reasoning. Because you wrote in response to my problems
with thoughts in meditation, I was ready to hear what you had to
say. This turned out very fruitful for me- I heard your meaning and
experienced it for myself (just a little bit, but enough to realize
the importance of it.) Your language was well-suited to helping me
and there was no confusion about it for me. It can be nice to go
back and express things in correct Abhidhamma language, but that has
nothing to do with the help you gave me. I hope you will continue to
share your experiences like this. If I have an intellectual question
about the Dhamma there are many people who can help me answer it. To
me that is "good Dhamma." But there are not many people like
yourself who have penetrated the Dhamma in experience and who will
share it to help others get there too. To me that is "best Dhamma."


With Metta,

Toby

Sensing dhamma as they really are

It is good to understand every aspect of thoughts and nama and
rupa. I read often Nina's writings which are a store house of
information. All that I know of Abhidhamma is what I have gathered
from Nina's writings. I do not STUDY Visuddhimagga and all suttas
in details.

For my purpose of meditation intellectualisation of Dhamma is
inessenstial. Meditation develops wisdom and the dhamma will be
REALISED rather than understood.

If the Mind is a sense door what does it sense ? For me it senses
thoughts that is all that is to it.

with metta,
Hasituppada

Sensing dhamma as they really are

When you meditate just be aware of a thought arising in the mind.
No need to see whether it is Olarika, Sukhuma and what not. Pasada
rupas do not experience any thing, it is through this door that the
citta experiences an object. But it is not relevant in meditation.
Learning and studying Dhamma is gathering knowledge. The knowledge
of Dhamma does not give you wisdom. Wisdom comes through Bhavana.

Any one without any knowledge of Buddha Dhamma following diligently
the instructions of a good meditation teacher in a monastic
environment may attain stream entry in this very life.

Knowledge of Dhamma is necessary to an extent, but beyond that it
may be a deterrent. That is why teachers instruct, that when you
are preparing to go to a retreat you should lock up your books one
week before the retreat. You must go to meditate with a " don't
know" mind , is a common saying among meditators.

If the knowledge of Dhamma is imperative to acquire wisdom,
Venerable Ananda would not have had to wait three months after the
parinibbana of the Buddha to become an Arahat.

Venerable Potthila was a very learned monk, he was teaching Dhamma
to five hundred Bikkhus. But he was a little proud of his great
learning and the knowledge of Dhamma, and would not meditate.
Whenever, the Lord Buddha met Venerable Potthila he called him,
tuccha Potthila, meaning useless Pottila, as he was neglecting to
meditate.

Once when Venerable Potthila was in a monastery with 30 monks who
were all Arahats, he thought, that he should meditate, and went to
the senior monk and asked him to give him instructions to meditate.
The Senior monk directed him to the next, and he to the next until
Venerable Potthila was directed to the last monk who was a
samanera of seven or ten years. Venerable Pottila, then made
respects to the young monk and asked him to instruct him to
meditate. The young Arahat told him venerable Sir, I am only a
Samanera, do you still want take instructions from me. Venerable
Potthila said yes and the Samanera gave him instructions following
which he attained the State of an Arahat.

Therefore, learn and study Dhamma, listen to Dhamma, but when you go
to meditate leave that knowledge outside the kuty( hut) where you
are going to meditate. Sit and "watch" the mind, there is no
person meditating, but just "a five aggregates"( Pancaskhandha).

With metta,
Hasituppada.
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